[Enigma]

From a Newgroup I monitor:

=================== Good Experience - 7 Nov 06 =====================
By Mark Hurst
Sign up: http://goodexperience.com/signup.php
================================================== ==================

Tuesday, November 7, 2006

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Broken: Bank of America jailing a customer
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I've heard of customer-hostile banks (and have experienced them
myself [1]), but this Bank of America story takes the cake.

Matthew Shinnick dropped by a Bank of America branch in San
Francisco to make sure a check he was about to deposit wasn't
fraudulent. The teller found that the check was fraudulent and told
the manager, who then had Shinnick thrown in jail.

Are you getting this right? The customer who wanted to make sure he
wasn't about to draw on a fraudulent check, got thrown in jail by
Bank of America.

The San Francisco Chronicle ran a story quoting Gel speaker and
craigslist founder Craig Newmark, among others - "Check from a
scammer bounces victim into jail": http://tinyurl.com/hjexp

> The teller contacted the business and was informed that no check
> had been written to Shinnick for $2,000 or any other amount. She
> immediately passed the check to the branch manager. "I saw him
> talking on the phone and staring at me," Shinnick said. "A few
> minutes later, four SFPD officers came into the bank. They didn't
> say a thing. They just kicked my legs apart and handcuffed me
> behind my back." The police report for Shinnick's arrest says he
> was taken into custody "for the safety of the bank employees as
> well as the bank customers."

Shinnick spent several hours in jail, dressed in an orange jumpsuit,
before his father posted $4,500 bail. All told Shinnick spent
$14,000 to clear his record. Bank of America refused to reimburse
him. In response, consumer advocate and radio host Clark Howard
started a Bank of America "Money Loss Meter"...
http://clarkhoward.com/topics/boa_meter.html

... to show how much money his listeners have withdrawn from BofA as
they close their accounts in protest. It's up to $50 million.
(There's more on Howard's site:)
http://clarkhoward.com/shownotes/2006/10/25/

And from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "Clark Howard takes on
B-of-A": http://tinyurl.com/ln3uz . For their part, Bank of America
denies that customers are closing their accounts as Howard claims.

Bank of America spokespeople point out that the bank was just
following California state law, which requires certain reporting of
fraudulent activity. But even if they *had* to throw Shinnick in
jail (which I doubt), they could still show their opposition to such
a strange and hostile law. Imagine if they paid part of Shinnick's
legal expenses, or even advocated a change in the law; think how
much better Bank of America would look in that case.

Companies have a responsibility to do right by their customers. I'm
not even making a moral case, though I think there is one; here I'm
just pointing out the financial responsibility. By hurting Matthew
Shinnick, and hiding behind a flimsy legal defense, Bank of America
hurt its own brand. Many customers left the bank because of this
incident, and B of A will have to resort to costly advertising to
win back those accounts. A customer-centric response would have been
faster, easier, and cheaper; good experience is good business.

- - -

See also:

[1] A bank experience (Oct. 5, 2006):
http://www.goodexperience.com/blog/archives/000997.php

Post a comment about this column:
http://www.goodexperience.com/blog/a...3.php#comments

Link to this column:
http://www.goodexperience.com/blog/archives/001053.php

[ilovemydogs]

One of my banks now is BoA. I have had the same account with the original bank (NOT BoA) for almost 30 years so it is very hard for me to close it.
BUT as of the first of the year, I will NOT be a BoA customer no more (or I s h ould say I am still going to keep my account open just in case it changes names again)as I cannot stand how bad they are in so many ways.
This case just proves it even more so.
This is what happened to me.
I get a lot of large checks, and I used to put them in my account, and they would clear right away especially if they were drawn of the same bank.
Well I was about to put one in and they told me funds would be available within 7 business days. I said, the check is drawn on this bank. They said, they have to make sure the account has funds so the check clears. I said MAKE SURE? Just check the account. They said for them to do that for me I would have to pay $2.00!
I said forget about it I am going to CASH IT. The teller said, WHAT IS YOUR ACCOUNT NUMBER? I said I don't need to give you an account number I want to cash it it is made out to ME and here is my license.Then she took the check over to the bank manager who came over to me and said, WHY NOT JUST PUT THIS CHECK IN THE BANK,or why not give us your account number so this check then can be on hold if there is a problem.
I SAID I DID NOT WANT THIC CHECK HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY ACCOUNT AND I WANTED IT CASHED NOW!!
So they then CALLED the person that gave me the check and made a big deal out of giving me MY money as they did not have enough hundred dollar bills.
I HATE BoA.
Oh now I have a question.
Say you have a credit line of $5,000.
You know you are almost at that limit, but not over.
Then when you get your statement BoA has charged you an over the limit charge becasue when they put on their interest for the month it brought you over the limit.
Can they do this???
ILMD

[centex]

The concern I have with the story is that they make it appear that the Bank actually said "Take him to jail." The aggrieved party has no say in whether a person is placed in custody, with the exception of the occasional Assault/Family Violence case.

The $45K bond (of which 10% was required to be posted) also makes me wonder what else was charged in the original arrest report. Tha bail schedule out there can be found at http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfi...l_schedule.pdf

I am a little surprised that the arrest report never appeared on The Smoking Gun given the motoriety the case achieved, which also makes me think that there was something else to the story that never made it into the media accounts.

[Hedwig]

ILMD--Yes, interest can make you go over limit. Whenever I have done big balance transfers, the bank always told me to make sure I left enough to cover the interest for the month.

I also have a BoA account that I've had for years through 4 or 5 mergers. I don't use it as my regular account. I keep a minimal balance in it most of the time. However, one advantage of BoA is that they are almost everywhere. So when I travel I'll put some money in my account so I can use ATMs to draw it out if necessary. Also, if I'm away without my husband and have an emergency, he can drop in cash and I can get it out.

centex--I think this often happens. Enough of the story is put out to get the public riled up, but there is something else not shown. Then when the person gets convicted, there is a big stick because the public is outraged. But they never know, as Paul Harvey says, "the rest of the story."

[ilovemydogs]

ILMD--Yes, interest can make you go over limit. Whenever I have done big balance transfers, the bank always told me to make sure I left enough to cover the interest for the month.


I never have been near my credit limit before, but we used it a lot recently on a trip.So I will make sure this does not ever happen again, as guess what???? The interest rate went up to 32%!!!!
So I paid the damn thing off ASAP

I also have a BoA account that I've had for years through 4 or 5 mergers. I don't use it as my regular account. I keep a minimal balance in it most of the time. However, one advantage of BoA is that they are almost everywhere. So when I travel I'll put some money in my account so I can use ATMs to draw it out if necessary. Also, if I'm away without my husband and have an emergency, he can drop in cash and I can get it out.

SO I think I will keep mine as well, but thing is mine you have to have $25,000 in the account or an account assoicated with it to get free checking, so I will have to leave the savings bank there then.

centex--I think this often happens. Enough of the story is put out to get the public riled up, but there is something else not shown. Then when the person gets convicted, there is a big stick because the public is outraged. But they never know, as Paul Harvey says, "the rest of the story."

I agree. Same thing here with the court case I have been watching on Court TV. I know most all the people involved and the people that do the talking on the shows get everything mixed up,and leave out things!

ILMD

[hannah]

I'm with Centex on this one...BofA couldn't have filed criminal charges...only the state can file criminal charges and not one story says whether the check he presented to them was fraudulent or not. There's a huge part of the story that isn't being told here...

[hannah]

After googling and finding out the whole story, it seems poor Matthew himself was the victim of the check writer and instead of the bank and the police doing a bit of investigation before he was arrested, the police arrested him first and investigated afterwards. The poor guy was finally released but it was a horrifying experience to him. He tried to sue BofA to get the money he had to use to clear his record (which if police had handled things correctly he would not have had a record) and due to precedent and the fact that BofA should not have been punished for reporting what they thought was a crime (just not Matthew's crime) the suit went no where as rightly it should not have even though the events surrounding Matthew's arrest were not handled very well from a customer service point of view. There was no police brutality in the arrest or otherwise, merely humiliation on the part of Matthew, who apparently, from all accounts, was a life-long law abiding citizen who was released within 24 hours with all charges dropped.

In response to some questions raised here and on other forums as well as some outright incorrect commentary that is passing as informed knowledge - anyone with proper identification can cash a check legally drawn on a bank in almost any amount. There is no banking law that says you must deposit the check and wait through a hold period if the bank you are cashing the check at is the bank the check is drawn on and the money to clear the check is present in the account. And I must say that $2000 is really not that much money. I have cashed checks for a lot more than that. In this case, there was a hold on the account because of suspected and/or known fraudulent activity. Some accounts can have holds put on where withdrawals are held to a certain amount per day, reducing the risk that fraud can occur. My personal checking is set at transactions of no more than $1000 per 24 hour period, unless I call in, answer a series of security questions and raise the limit for the amount I need for the next 24 hours or a specific period of time. This is fine as I usually know when I am going to make a large purchase. Those limits are normally for debit transactions. For checks, I am notified by phone on any check that comes in over $2500 and asked about the check before it is debited from my account.

In addition, after receiving a check for a large amount, I have also called a bank, told the bank I had received a check from so and so at such and such address for xx dollars, given the bank the account number on the check and asked if it will clear. I have never had a bank not give me that information.

In the case of the OP's original post on poor Matthew, the point of the whole article was the fact that BofA called the police on a young man for asking about a check that had been drawn fraudulently and instead of ascertaining that Matthew himself had been scammed and was therefore an innocent victim of the scammer, they called the police on one of their own customers. It was a story of horrendous customer service and only that. BofA did nothing illegal nor did the police.

[spinn]

Not sure about this case but this is a fairly common scam on Craigslist.

A company claims they can not cash checks in the USA so they need you to cash it and wire them the money. They then send you a fraudulent check that I am sure looks legit. They tell you you can keep 10% or so and you wire them the rest. Then the bank realizes the check is fake and you are stuck.

They claim you can make $15,000 a month. In three months you can afford bail.

[ilovemydogs]

hannah;19947]After googling and finding out the whole story, it seems poor Matthew himself was the victim of the check writer and instead of the bank and the police doing a bit of investigation before he was arrested, the police arrested him first and investigated afterwards. The poor guy was finally released but it was a horrifying experience to him. He tried to sue BofA to get the money he had to use to clear his record (which if police had handled things correctly he would not have had a record) and due to precedent and the fact that BofA should not have been punished for reporting what they thought was a crime (just not Matthew's crime) the suit went no where as rightly it should not have even though the events surrounding Matthew's arrest were not handled very well from a customer service point of view. There was no police brutality in the arrest or otherwise, merely humiliation on the part of Matthew, who apparently, from all accounts, was a life-long law abiding citizen who was released within 24 hours with all charges dropped.

Maybe he can sue the town as the police acted way to ast in a rush to judgement.

In response to some questions raised here and on other forums as well as some outright incorrect commentary that is passing as informed knowledge - anyone with proper identification can cash a check legally drawn on a bank in almost any amount.

I didn't see where anyone said differently.

There is no banking law that says you must deposit the check and wait through a hold period if the bank you are cashing the check at is the bank the check is drawn on and the money to clear the check is present in the account.

IME if you want to cash a check for 15,000 or over they sometimes make you wait as they do not have all the cash on hand and I have waited an hour or so.


And I must say that $2000 is really not that much money. I have cashed checks for a lot more than that. In this case, there was a hold on the account because of suspected and/or known fraudulent activity. Some accounts can have holds put on where withdrawals are held to a certain amount per day, reducing the risk that fraud can occur. My personal checking is set at transactions of no more than $1000 per 24 hour period, unless I call in, answer a series of security questions and raise the limit for the amount I need for the next 24 hours or a specific period of time.

You mean if you made out a check for $3,000,and a person went to cash it they would call you up? What happens if you are not there? The person at the bank waiting for his/her money cannot cash it?? Are you also saying if you only can get cash of 1,000 out of an ATM daily? YOu do not mean you cannot take out as much as you want from your own account inside the bank.

This is fine as I usually know when I am going to make a large purchase. Those limits are normally for debit transactions. For checks, I am notified by phone on any check that comes in over $2500 and asked about the check before it is debited from my account.

OKAY so again what happens if the person is at the bank and wants to cash it and the bank cannot get a hold of you?I would be livid if they would not cash it, and I also would not want to take a check from you in the future.

In addition, after receiving a check for a large amount, I have also called a bank, told the bank I had received a check from so and so at such and such address for xx dollars, given the bank the account number on the check and asked if it will clear. I have never had a bank not give me that information.

This is the way it has always been here for me in any and every bank I have dealt with. NOW no can do.They will not give out that info here often anymore.In addition just because there are funds when you call in, there just might not be when you go to the bamk to cash it.

In the case of the OP's original post on poor Matthew, the point of the whole article was the fact that BofA called the police on a young man for asking about a check that had been drawn fraudulently and instead of ascertaining that Matthew himself had been scammed and was therefore an innocent victim of the scammer, they called the police on one of their own customers. It was a story of horrendous customer service and only that. BofA did nothing illegal nor did the police.[/quote]
I can see how it happened but it makes me really ticked off as if the bank did nothave blinders on and the police it would not have come to this.
LIke I said I do not like the BoA here, as there in not even a LOCAL phone number to call anymore and when you do call,it is a pain , as the people seem clueless.
I even have had a few ask me where I opened my account, and I tell them, and they say "Oh yes ,so where is that? I say NEW ENGLAND, and then they say oh okay New England,has New York, New Jersey!
ILMD

[hannah]

Originally Posted by ILMD

OKAY so again what happens if the person is at the bank and wants to cash it and the bank cannot get a hold of you?I would be livid if they would not cash it, and I also would not want to take a check from you in the future.

If I wrote the check, I take the security steps so that the check may be cashed in advance. This has only happened a few times. I do most purchasing with a debit card and I also have a VISA at the same bank. Rarely do I write a check for more than a small purchase at a store where they don't accept debit or to the paper girl when I don't have any cash.

Remember, you don't have to place any security arrangements such as holds and limits on your account. If you want anything and everything to go through, by all means, don't do it. My concern when I did this was I was in the middle of finding out about all the accounts that weren't mine on my CR. I had just been sued for a hospital bill that wasn't mine in a city I'd never been in for a disease I'd never had. I don't know how safe my checking really is from id theft and I might not know for several years so I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Originally Posted by ILMD

This is the way it has always been here for me in any and every bank I have dealt with. NOW no can do.They will not give out that info here often anymore..

Perhaps it is because I have been banking at the same bank for a long period of time and know everyone who works there personally but I doubt they would do anything illegal even for me.

[ilovemydogs]

Originally Posted by hannah

If I wrote the check, I take the security steps so that the check may be cashed in advance. This has only happened a few times. I do most purchasing with a debit card and I also have a VISA at the same bank. Rarely do I write a check for more than a small purchase at a store where they don't accept debit or to the paper girl when I don't have any cash.

Remember, you don't have to place any security arrangements such as holds and limits on your account. If you want anything and everything to go through, by all means, don't do it. My concern when I did this was I was in the middle of finding out about all the accounts that weren't mine on my CR. I had just been sued for a hospital bill that wasn't mine in a city I'd never been in for a disease I'd never had. I don't know how safe my checking really is from id theft and I might not know for several years so I'd rather be safe than sorry.




Perhaps it is because I have been banking at the same bank for a long period of time and know everyone who works there personally but I doubt they would do anything illegal even for me.

????? You are fortunate that you have the same people working at the bank. I do not know anyone anymore, and I have had this same account since 75,and had several mortages with them, car loans, boat loans, business loans, and it used to be I would go in (now this was in the late 70's) and tell them what we needed and the Bank President would hand over the money ASAP. We didn't even have much credit nor any money in the bank.
How times have changed...

ILMD

[jlynn]

Originally Posted by ilovemydogs

How times have changed...

ILMD

Aww, it really mostly matters where you are. A friend got a phone call the other day while we were talking...the bank called wanting to know if he had bought some cattle (he's a rancher), he said yes, why? Well, we have a 25K check written by you, and $100 in your account, WE WILL GO AHEAD AND CLEAR IT FOR YOU. He'd forgotten to cover the check.

Now thats hometown service.

[ilovemydogs]

Originally Posted by jlynn

Aww, it really mostly matters where you are. A friend got a phone call the other day while we were talking...the bank called wanting to know if he had bought some cattle (he's a rancher), he said yes, why? Well, we have a 25K check written by you, and $100 in your account, WE WILL GO AHEAD AND CLEAR IT FOR YOU. He'd forgotten to cover the check.

Now thats hometown service.

Yup it sure is. We do not have many natives here anymore.
Just wash a shores...

ILMD