[rubyruby27]

In the process of writing either my motion for attorney fees and or appeal.

Questions on proper way to quote or use another person work.

Halt's amicus brief on pro se recieving attorneys fees is good, I would like to use a lot of what they said but I am not sure how to quote thier work since I would be using a lot of thier brief.

When you paraphrase anothers work do you give them credit, if so how.

[centex]

Appellate and motion materials are not like a research paper where you have to give credit to another's work. You do need to reference cases if/when you are quoting from other court opinions, and it is always beneficial to reference an RCP section if you are interpreting it as a basis for your motion.

[hannah]

Originally Posted by rubyruby27

In the process of writing either my motion for attorney fees and or appeal.

Questions on proper way to quote or use another person work.

Halt's amicus brief on pro se recieving attorneys fees is good, I would like to use a lot of what they said but I am not sure how to quote thier work since I would be using a lot of thier brief.

When you paraphrase anothers work do you give them credit, if so how.

All legal writing needs to be clear, concise and logically coherent. You would say, "In quoting (insert writer's name or name of organization or the name of the brief in this case as quoted in whatever case# and name)" and then quote it. You need to set up the quote as well so that it makes sense in the context quoted. Judges normally do not care if it's not caselaw or statute but in order to be succint and on point without bringing more into than you need to, I would say it like this: As used in (insert case the amicus brief was filed for), the Halt amicus brief states...and then tell why it is applicable in your case.

You can also paraphrase and need not quote which is sometimes the better way to go.

Here's a website that tells you how to paraphrase correctly... and one that tells you how to write briefs.
http://www.cjed.com/brief.htm

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handou...r_paraphr.html

Ruby, that's also something you should search for at the law library...search "pro se attorney fees" or something like that "pro se, attorney fees", etc. There might actually be precedence in Florida and if so, you need to apply it to your case.

[rubyruby27]

Thank you Centex.

[rubyruby27]

Thanks Hannah,

I have researched this in Florida and no there are no case laws for lay pro se. It said lay pro se will never get attorneys fees. I don't remember the exact quote but the reason is simply we as pro se did not lose any income or potential income by defending our rights. Attorney pro se however may have lost income by working on thier own case.

Attorney pro se may get attorney fees if it is allowed by statute or in a contract.

I think by using the constitution, caselaws on attorny pro se and plain old common sense, I have a shot at making a pathway for myself or others by learning from my mistakes.

Thanks for those links.

[hannah]

Originally Posted by rubyruby27

Thanks Hannah,

I have researched this in Florida and no there are no case laws for lay pro se. It said lay pro se will never get attorneys fees. I don't remember the exact quote but the reason is simply we as pro se did not lose any income or potential income by defending our rights. Attorney pro se however may have lost income by working on thier own case.

Attorney pro se may get attorney fees if it is allowed by statute or in a contract.

I think by using the constitution, caselaws on attorny pro se and plain old common sense, I have a shot at making a pathway for myself or others by learning from my mistakes.

Thanks for those links.

So instead of attorney fees, you ask for expenses. You did incur expenses in defending the suit. Expenses in the form of mileage (calculate at federal rate for taxes), offices supplies, copying, etc. If you work, calculate time off from work at your daily rate of pay, etc. I did not get attorney fees for any of mine done pro se but I was awarded $1203.89 in expenses for one of them...

Research pro se expenses in defending and see if there is any precedent. Research expenses in a frivolous suit as well. A company who cannot provide proof of a debt has filed a frivolous suit IMHO.

[rubyruby27]

You guys need to sticky these sites for others.

[rubyruby27]

I ask for attorney fees, expenses and cost in my motion under inherent powers. I will have to refile for fees in a motion for attorney fees, I think and that is what I am working on untill the mailman gets here and I see if thier opposition to my MSJ is in the mail. If not, they might not be contesting my motion. I find that hard to beleive since they did file an objection to discovery.

[VexatiousLitigant]

Originally Posted by rubyruby27

the reason is simply we as pro se did not lose any income or potential income by defending our rights.

Yes, because doing legal research as a pro se is easy and wouldn't affect your full time job at all. I love this logic.

[rubyruby27]

VL,

I don't follow this logic, legal research is not easy and is time consuming also I have not read one case law that said they lost income from preparing thier own case.

Common sense says if an attorney is working for a firm and not a partner, he too spent his off time working on his own case. Not the firms time. If he is getting paid by the firm while he is working on his own case without repaying his firm for this time, then he is getting paid twice if he wins his case and is awarded attorney fees.

Common sense says that an attorney in his own private practice would not give up his income to work on his case exclusively. Again he is getting double paid for his case if he wins.

Most people are employees outside of the legal network, if they take time off to research, go to court, prepare motions etc they have lost income, that they would have received. Unless you are a nightworker and you have access to the courts and library during the hours of 9-5 perhaps you didn't lose any income.

I personally took quite a few days off trying to research and write motions before my hearings and required mediation, up to this point I have taken at least 14 days off in the past 10 months--I work independent so I refused work to research or attend a court hearing.

To me their rationale is flawed and that is what I have to key in on. That I am a second class citizen since I am not a lawyer and I an not entitled to attorney fees so my occupation is in fact inferior and I am being denied my due process of law.

[centex]

Originally Posted by rubyruby27

Common sense says if an attorney is working for a firm and not a partner, he too spent his off time working on his own case. Not the firms time. If he is getting paid by the firm while he is working on his own case without repaying his firm for this time, then he is getting paid twice if he wins his case and is awarded attorney fees.

Not all counsel has an automatic salary even when not a partner. My check varies on a monthly basis...when asked, I have oft compared it to the sales people who get a draw against commissions. If you aren't producing, sooner or later it would catch up to you and you would be shown the door.

Common sense says that an attorney in his own private practice would not give up his income to work on his case exclusively. Again he is getting double paid for his case if he wins.

I'm not sure I see where you get this from. The private practitioner needs clients in the door who are willing to pay in order to survive. We don't all get to punch a time clock and automatically draw a check. This week was a good example of the hectic periods that can be experienced...I had three days this week that were 14-18 hours in the office. Contrast that with the weeks where I might spend 15-20 hours in the week having to do any real work. Some cases simply require more time than others...but the small office practitioner still has to be there. Thus to compare our work week to someone that may be a clock puncher would not be a good analogy when viewing what may or may not be deserved.

Most people are employees outside of the legal network, if they take time off to research, go to court, prepare motions etc they have lost income, that they would have received. Unless you are a nightworker and you have access to the courts and library during the hours of 9-5 perhaps you didn't lose any income.

There are generally a number of accessible law libraries that are open well beyond the 7AM-6PM constraints. I can remember using the one at U of H until midnight and 1AM on many occasions when doing some undergrad work. Of course, now that the internet has made things easier, it can be done at home in sweats with a DrPepper by my side and a cat in my lap...

To me their rationale is flawed and that is what I have to key in on. That I am a second class citizen since I am not a lawyer and I an not entitled to attorney fees so my occupation is in fact inferior and I am being denied my due process of law.

I don't see you getting far with the denial of due process argument...and that is about all I am going to say on that.

[hannah]

Originally Posted by centex

I don't see you getting far with the denial of due process argument...and that is about all I am going to say on that.

Centex is correct here, Ruby. This is not a due process argument. Getting paid for legal work has nothing to do with due process.

[rubyruby27]

Originally Posted by centex

Not all counsel has an automatic salary even when not a partner. My check varies on a monthly basis...when asked, I have oft compared it to the sales people who get a draw against commissions. If you aren't producing, sooner or later it would catch up to you and you would be shown the door.
My point, even an attorney pro se is working his case on his off time, where ever that may be. While a 9-5 must work after hours or take time off.

My reason for pointing this out is, the reasoning for attorney pro se may be granted attorney fees is due to the fact, that they COULD HAVE taken a case to produce income, therefore they may have missed an opportunity.

Where I did miss the opportunity to work. Why is an attorney pro se's opportunities more important than mine. If that is the case then I am a second class citizen in the eyes of the Court. I am not fighting a case for equal rights in front the very people that say I am a second class citizen.


I'm not sure I see where you get this from. The private practitioner needs clients in the door who are willing to pay in order to survive. We don't all get to punch a time clock and automatically draw a check. This week was a good example of the hectic periods that can be experienced...I had three days this week that were 14-18 hours in the office. Contrast that with the weeks where I might spend 15-20 hours in the week having to do any real work. Some cases simply require more time than others...but the small office practitioner still has to be there. Thus to compare our work week to someone that may be a clock puncher would not be a good analogy when viewing what may or may not be deserved.

Thats my point, I didn't say it well enough, he is still at his office taking cases.



There are generally a number of accessible law libraries that are open well beyond the 7AM-6PM constraints. I can remember using the one at U of H until midnight and 1AM on many occasions when doing some undergrad work. Of course, now that the internet has made things easier, it can be done at home in sweats with a DrPepper by my side and a cat in my lap...

The nearest law libray to me is 30 miles away that is open till 11

I don't see you getting far with the denial of due process argument...and that is about all I am going to say on that.

It is the duty of the trial court to exercise its authority and to even-handedly apply the same sanctions to protect the due process rights of its litigants whether they are represented by counsel or are proceeding pro se.

I found a quote from Chief Justice Burger (I think) something to the effect the courts are not mediators they must become active and make things right. I can't find it right now it is in the middle of 150 page paper. It wasn't talking about pro se, just that the Courts have a duty to take control and make the situation right.

I do thank you again for your input, it will help me making sure I try and cover those bases.

[hannah]

Read this on due process...it explains it much better than I could. http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Due_process

In addition, you need to be asking for your expenses for defending the suit not for being paid to defend your suit and that's only if you win. You have a shot at expenses, but not, I fear, with attorney fees.

[centex]

Ruby, just because an attorney is IN the office and NOT IN court does not mean they are taking cases. The phone doesn't ring just because I need to pay bills.

One of the fundamental problems with your earlier claims on fees is that you felt you should be paid for every minute you had spent LEARNING the law. It doesn't work that way. Also, not every attorney works on an hourly basis. As an example, it is a $10K minimum walking in my door...whether I spend 15 minutes or 15 hours or 15 days on that matter. And yes, I have had cases that I had resolved in less time that it took to prepare the LSA and key it into my database. If I had to show something as an hourly fee, I would also be able to do so based on my previous employment as an expert witness. Despite that history though, it does not mean I would be able to claim the full $600 an hour in a matter I represented myself in and prevailed.

IMO, worrying about fees before you have a judgment in hand is an exercise in futility. Remember, most cases tend to settle prior to getting to trial where there is a meritorious claim that has been advanced...and in such instances, most settlements generally tend to have each side eating their own costs.

[centex]

And...the other reason that an attorney stands a better chance at getting fees while pursuing their own case is precisely because they ARE an attorney. They are generally expected to know what they are doing. However, rare is the instance where you will see an attorney handle their own case. Most tend to retain outside counsel...the whole adage thing and all...

[rubyruby27]

Centex,

Thanks for your thoughts, I still think I should be paid for all the hours I was forced to research and play attorney, it was not my choice. Yes, it was I could have filed BK.

I see what your point is, not sure you are seeing mine, it doesn't matter who you are, what matters is your treating equally. If you are an attorney pro se or a lay pro se, for whatever reason you choose to defend your own actions you should be afford the exact rights of the other side. If I had sanctions against me they could get money, it doesn't matter what they do I get nothing.

I feel confident I will win one way or the other, I am not that fast with writing this stuff, it takes me a long time to get it right, so while I am free today at home, I thought this would be a good time to get a head start.

Again, Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts and concern. I welcome your post.