[cracrap]

as i sit here and contemplate the meaning of life , the universe and everything in it....i am struck by this notion of "unlicensed practice of law" conundrum..

if im sick and u give me advice to take a certain type of herb or medication..
are u practicing unlicensed medical care??

if l have a home repair issue and someone gives me advice on how to repair it ...is that practicing unlicensed contracting?

if i break my car and u give me advice on how to repair it ..is it unlicensed auto repair??

so how is it that if someone asks for legal advice.. and its given to them..its considered " unlicensed practice of law ??

thats bullspittle...

[hannah]

Have you been reading another board's definitions again?

[centex]

Originally Posted by cracrap

as i sit here and contemplate the meaning of life , the universe and everything in it....i am struck by this notion of "unlicensed practice of law" conundrum..

if im sick and u give me advice to take a certain type of herb or medication..
are u practicing unlicensed medical care??

I'm not sure that all states require licensure of a homeopath

if l have a home repair issue and someone gives me advice on how to repair it ...is that practicing unlicensed contracting?

licensure is not usually required, although your insurance company may have issues with the lack of bonded guidance when your house becomes a loss

if i break my car and u give me advice on how to repair it ..is it unlicensed auto repair??

Other than ASE, I don't know that there is a standard, but again, there is no requirement for licensure to work in the automotive repair field

so how is it that if someone asks for legal advice.. and its given to them..its considered " unlicensed practice of law ??

thats bullspittle...

see, that is where you and the law diverge. Practice of law requires licensure in all states, and in most of them, the JD is required to sit for the bar. There are certainly different standards by State for what constitutes UPL, and MOST people know how not to cross them. Some of the people that insisted on crossing the line, however, are no longer welcome to post here...

[Lucy]

Originally Posted by hannah

Have you been reading another board's definitions again?

If so, do yourself a favor and run, run far, far away.

[Pale Rider]

There is a huge difference between

"In my opinion you should sue them"

and

"You have a valid case and damages. Let me write a complaint for you. Here is a step by step guide on how to proceed in the distrct court in your state. Let me help you with discovery. When you call them put me on 3 way and I will guide you through this. Let me help you with your negotiations."

Also, the ABA's definition of UPL has no mention of payment. At least the version I saw.

In the medical example, you may give your kids medication when sick, but I hope you are not operating on them in serious health matters.

[neil5623]

So what IS the official definition of UPL? If a non-attorney goes to the courtroom and does oral argument on behalf of another, does that fit the definition? I was thinking that maybe I should have had DW do my talking for me, because she thinks and talks a bit faster on her feet than I do. Also, a friend asked me to help with the paperwork on her uncontested divorce....

[centex]

Originally Posted by neil5623

So what IS the official definition of UPL?

It will be defined in the state codes as well as on the Bar website.

If a non-attorney goes to the courtroom and does oral argument on behalf of another, does that fit the definition? I was thinking that maybe I should have had DW do my talking for me, because she thinks and talks a bit faster on her feet than I do.

Generally speaking, that would not be permitted. There are some exceptions. As an example, the Texas codes in an eviction proceding actually permit an agent of the landlord to speak for the landlord, a situation that has been acknowledged as a rule that, on its face, constituted the exception to UPL.

[neil5623]

The text below came from an article in the Texas Bar Journal, October 2004. Appears that it becomes UPL if you do it for $.


• Section 83.001 of the State Bar Act prohibits most non-lawyers from charging or receiving a fee for preparing real estate instruments;

• Section 38.122 of the Penal Code prohibits a person, with intent to obtain an economic benefit, from falsely holding himself out as a lawyer;

• Section 38.123 of the Penal Code prohibits a person, with an intent to obtain an economic benefit, from (a) contracting with persons to represent them in regard to causes of action for personal injuries or property damages, (b) advising persons as to their rights and advisability of making claims for personal injuries or property damages, or (c) advising persons as to whether to accept a settlement of claims for personal injuries or property damage;

• DR 5.05 prohibits a lawyer from aiding a non-lawyer in UPL and from committing UPL in another jurisdiction;

• DR 5.04(a) prohibits fee splitting between a lawyer and a non-lawyer; and

• DR 5.04(b) prohibits a lawyer from forming a partnership with a non-lawyer to practice law

• DR 8.04(a)(11) prohibits a lawyer from practicing law during an administrative suspension. The purpose of UPL laws is to protect the public from persons who are inexperienced and unlearned in legal matters who attempt to practice law without first qualifying themselves through courses of study or who may be morally unfit to practice law.(5)

[centex]

Neil, it simply ain't that simple...and what Texas may or may not recognize is not binding on the other 49 states or DC. UPL is a constantly morphing issue, and it is not solely an issue of whether one receives money in exchange for the services.

There is a lot on the web in a number of forums that could be construed as UPL if the matter was pushed...but it would not matter what I posted on the subject because you simply want to be contrarian.

[spinn]

Lawyers will never give up the monopoly they have on the law. I would rather have Tower Rat represent me (who I dont believe was an attorney) than Joe Dog Bite, Esquire.

My feeling is also that good advice is good advice whether it comes from an attorney or not. I also know expanding UPL as much as possible means money to lawyers and we all know they like money.

Does anyone think the lawyer who sued poor immigrants for $54 million is going to let some of his franchise slip away?

[centex]

Originally Posted by spinn

means money to lawyers and we all know they like money.

You say that like its a bad thing. Some of us like being able to pay our bills and making frivolous purchases like vacations and extra vehicles just because we were bored and didn't know what to do with the extra sum that was just sitting around...

One of the problems with the explosion of the self-appointed know-it-all's that post in a manner consistent with UPL is that they are a significant contributor to some of the CRAP that gets filed in Court and that clogs the dockets that could be used to more expeditiously process matters that truly deserve to be on the docket...that would be something you might notice when it is YOUR livelihood that depends on how dockets get processed. You might notice it even if you didn't do civil work but were still around the courts and other counsel on a daily basis...

[neil5623]

Originally Posted by centex

but it would not matter what I posted on the subject because you simply want to be contrarian.

Au contraire! I posted that not for the purpose of being a contrarian (yes, sometimes I am) but to report what I found in my search. It came from the bar website, like where you said to look. My question was what if one spouse presents the oral argument of the other's case. My research on texasbar.com did not explicitly show where it was or was not, but I posted what I found anyway along with a generalization of their rules. Further contemplation tells me that another interpretation of UPL, which I have heard before, is when you hold yourself out to the general public as practicing law (giving advice to others).

If a headstrong, argumentative spouse presenting his/her significant other's oral argument is considered UPL, then it would be nice to know for sure, before it happens, without being contrarian.

Show me someone who does NOT like money, and I will be looking at a dead person.

[centex]

Originally Posted by neil5623

If a headstrong, argumentative spouse presenting his/her significant other's oral argument is considered UPL, then it would be nice to know for sure, before it happens, without being contrarian.

If you are making someone elses arguments in court, they have ceased to represent themselves. The person presenting the arguments is then representing them. That person had damned sure better be admitted to the Bar.

In Texas, there are limited exceptions in administrative hearings that permitted an agent to act who was not licensed to practice, but in the realm of civil practice, the only exception I am aware of that is carved out is in property/eviction matters. Even there, the commentary reflects the conflict created by the TRCP provisions...

[hannah]

What constitutes UPL is state specific and may change. In order to know what it is in your state you would need to check your state bar website for what is considered UPL in your state.

[cracrap]

Originally Posted by centex

I'm not sure that all states require licensure of a homeopath

i was referring more to a doctor rather than a homeopathic practitioner...which requires a license

licensure is not usually required, although your insurance company may have issues with the lack of bonded guidance when your house becomes a loss

california requires contractors to be licensed for any job worth more than 500.00 dollars labor and material included...i believe its the strictest in the nation when it comes to contractors



Other than ASE, I don't know that there is a standard, but again, there is no requirement for licensure to work in the automotive repair field

california requires them to be licensed with the state automobile repair bureau



see, that is where you and the law diverge. Practice of law requires licensure in all states, and in most of them, the JD is required to sit for the bar. There are certainly different standards by State for what constitutes UPL, and MOST people know how not to cross them. Some of the people that insisted on crossing the line, however, are no longer welcome to post here...

i guess my point doesnt translate too well when in cali, licensing is required for virtually everything, and i dont mean a city business license, i mean state licensing...
...and other states dont require it

[hannah]

Nope, WV requires them to be licensed as well. I feel your pain...

Don't cross me though, I have had visions of your pain...